Micael

To illustrate a point?

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Micael

And (in looking back at it), I don't think it's an extreme leap. If we're going to force people to pay into the system, under stiff penalties and even years of jailtime, how is that comparison extreme? We're already doing it somewhat, with the massive taxes on cigarettes (I wonder how much of that tax goes towards lowering health costs, and how much of it goes to the pork barrel).

It's really the next step towards lowering "health care costs", right?

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berdinkerdickle

I think you might be correct.
You are with SS.

Not necessarily my opinion, but my father in law thinks it should be similar to SS, in that it comes out at a percentage of your income - like FICA & MED.

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daThomas

I know. Those other industrialized nations (ALL of them) are crazy.

davidra

For some reason you seem to lack the understanding that someone, like you, has to pay for all those emergency room visits. This is not Wonderland. And when those people are discharged without insurance, they can't get followup because nobody will see them. Their condition will deteriorate, and they will be back in the hospital again, and between times they'll clog up the ER with non-emergent problems because they have no primary care provider. You think this is a health care system for 30-55 million Americans without insurance?

It's really unfortunate that you just can't see that many people ARE only concerned about people having health insurance coverage. You continually come up with some kind of absurd rationale to back up your posts that have no data or basis in reality....like the only reason democrats want health care reform is because they want to cram a public option down everyone's throat. Give me a break. That may be your justification, but that's a lot of bull. In fact, as I've said many times, show me a way to provide for everyone who is uninsured without a public option, and I'd be all for it. I just know it's impossible. If our costs were as low as Germany or Italy, it might work...because it does there. Private companies compete with a public option and they do just fine. But you want a CT scanner on every corner so you don't have to drive very far, and we will not control costs with that attitude.

It's literally amazing how wrong you can be, and so consistently as well.

davidra

And as for you....congrats for actually seeing the issue the way most providers do. Let me give you a hint...most people are not happy about having to do this. But it's the only way to get done what needs to be done, and it's a brave person that is willing to actually go against their world view when necessary. I never thought I'd say this, but I agree with you 100%.

Micael

You assume incorrectly, as usual.

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The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.

Micael

Your words, not mine.

(btw, some of those crazy nations are trying to reintroduce competitive private insurance)

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palandri

What private insurance CEO in the US could get by on a mere $80K a year. He spends that much just on haircuts and plugs.

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clemgrad85

Criminalizing people for "smoking, drinking, obesity, risky sports, eating bad foods, etc.".....how did you take that from my statement. First, I have no problem charging people more for smoking, obesity, and risky sports since those can be measured or at least proven and besides, we already do in many types of insurance plans. Not sure how you ask someone on an application if they eat bad foods (seems complicated) or get a real answer on drinking (well, some applications do ask that now, so actually can do that one). However, no problem on charging extra for certain issues.....no need to go overboard and hit these people with fines and jailtime, kind of silly really.

Now, not sure how you do the fines for not enrolling in some plan....no f*#@ing idea on that. Wish I had the answer for that.

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"It's good to be the King" - Mel Brooks, History of the World, Part 1

"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."

"I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." General George S. Patton

clemgrad85

Yikes....that does worry me that you agree with me However, please note, I am NOT an advocate of universal coverage and I believe that is your plan. That, in my opinion, is not needed and will just cause worse problems than we have now. Anyway, glad we at least could come to some agreement, but it does scare me....yikes.

Plus....I'm still a backer of this being done by the States and not the Federal Government. The current "pooled" plan in SC could be improved and folks could be supplemented who couldn't afford it. I personally would have no problem paying an extra 5 cents per gallon at the pump or an extra penny of sales tax to help people with coverage. Yes, if you are making $200k you should be able to afford all the premium (they wouldn't need to be on a state plan if pre-ex are waived for insurance companies), but someone making $10k simply can't and should be helped. But if EVERYONE pays via a sales tax and at the pump at least it doesn't force the successful people in our country to be the one holding the bill.

If we take care of these people....get them covered....then hopefully that translates into improved rates for the folks currently on and happy with their group or individual plan. This can be done WITHOUT Obama ripping the system totally up.

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"It's good to be the King" - Mel Brooks, History of the World, Part 1

"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."

"I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." General George S. Patton

daThomas

Regulated to the point they are legally not allowed to make profits.

Again I'll point out that the U.S. is the only industrialized nation which allows health insurance companies to profit off of illness.

groovy

That's actually wrong. Insurance companies don't profit from illness. On the contrary, it's when people are well that they profit.

So, the U.S. is the only industrialized nation which allows health insurance companies to profit off of people's well being.

KAM1138

Sorry to be jumping so far back, but I was away for a bit.

Let's remember this correctly--you said that discussing "magic stories" was robbing your of your education. Whether you believe Religion is fiction or not isn't the point you made--you likened "fiction" to a waste. So, you are in fact the one "jumping."

You are also are incorrect--because YOU think religion is fiction doesn't mean Religion should be characterized as such by schools. That's fairly typical--you who are so offended that someone might present a view that you don't believe, are more than willing to have public institutions push your views on others. What place does a school have in declaring what is or isn't a valid belief? None, but that's what you insist they do, but declaring it fiction. If YOU want to believe it is fiction, that's your choice. LEARNING about what various Religions believe is not proclaiming the truth, but an objective study of legitimate cultural elements.

Religion is not literature--YOU likened it to that, so I questioned you on it. Religion is just like any other cultural study, but again--some seem dedicated to making special (negative) exceptions for it.

Well, first if you think that science and honesty are inherently connected, you are very wrong. Science is as much about politics (dishonesty) as anything.
Second--I do not say Creationism isn't scientific theory, but if someone wants to pursue it using science they are welcome to it, and a bunch of paranoid secularists need not throw a hissy fit about it. So much for open-mindedness huh? Creationism as science isn't my thing, and I'm not here to defend it--rather to point out what I see as flaws in anti-Religious people's arguments.

In other words--don't mention it--its too creepy to justify. Sure, no problem.

One really can't complain about Religious teaching at a Religious school.

I do see the difference, but I am not sure you aren't blurring that. I don't believe Public schools should teach Creationism as science, but I don't think they should be required to declare it as "fiction" and treat it as a literature course either. Religion is a belief--amongst many other types of beliefs and it shouldn't be a taboo subject as a bunch of extreme secularists (not accusing you necessarily) demand it be, which in effect promotes THEIR belief (which is a dedicated atheism--not incidential atheism).

I won't go into it, but I see a difference in someone who has a lack of belief in a religion, vs someone who has an belief in anti-Religion.

KAM

clemgrad85

Excellent point! Soup for you!

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"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."

"I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." General George S. Patton

KAM1138

And a major flaw in your position is that the Government has no right to tell me I must carry insurance coverage at all. Congratulations for supporting unlimited government. I hope you can cheer as loud when some other administration is in and using that same justification to harm you.

Oh wait...are you going to say that already happened--over the last 8 years? That's what an indoctrinated Obamite would say.

KAM

scoobdude

If we taught religion as as non-fiction then which one should we teach as they all contradict science and each other in some form or way. There for a contradiction would lead to burden of proof. Can you prove that YOUR religion is correct over someone else's? Science is based on theory and the proof there of.

Now in your defense we could say that what Einstein said about time travel is fiction as well as the burden of proof is still at large and we cannot travel even close to 186,000 miles per second. But hey when we do, maybe we can go back in time and answer the "which religion is non-fiction" question



Anyway, back to healthcare. I honestly still do not believe that taxinf people or throwing money at a problem will fix it. An idea will. So lets start coming up with those....

KAM1138

That would be a great point, except of course they ARE craming the public option down everyone's throat. From what I read, the claims that "you can keep your plan if you like" isn't really true, in that the new government plan is designed to funnel you into it at every turn. Technically you may under some circumstances be able to keep your current plan, but that moving forward it probably isn't very likely.

IF this is true (and who can really tell, given the shenanegens going on constantly with middle of the night business), then one must ask if that is "bull" or not. Does it really matter what I believe their motivation is, if the result is the same?

KAM

KAM1138

I'm not sure I agree with your claims. However, I've not made any demand or desire that my religion be taught as truthful or that anyone accept it as such. I am not attempting to prove my religion is "correct."

Schools are teaching ABOUT religions, just like they teach about other cultural beliefs. Does one need to PROVE that other non-religious cultural practices are "correct" or not? No, there is a false distinction being drawn here, and when studied as an academic subject, there is no difference.

Additionally--I will mention this (although you seem to understand this already), Science is not fact. Most of science is NOT fact, but theory, and that's not talking down science (I make my living with science in one form or another), but rather stating the truth. Science is ever-evolving, and though some adhere to it with a Religious fervor (and if you want to talk crazy--deal with that contradiction), but it isn't. Science isn't constant, and may include a lot of facts, but is not the same as fact.

Now if you are a objectivist...well, I'm sorry, but they might make that mistake.

Well, in fact, attempts to do what you just stated are in fact, failing, and only continuing by racking up unsustainable debt. So, this type of plan has already proven to be a failure in terms of economics, despite people pretending they are getting a free lunch. They aren't and sooner or later that will catch up to us, and then this will all seem trivial.

KAM

berdinkerdickle

How about; 'The U.S. is the only industrialized nation which allows health insurance companies to profit off of peoples need to be insured?

But really, if they aren't making money, they aren't going to do business.

So people suffer from the insurance companies need to profit.

That's where this is so unique. They deserve to make money, that's why they started the company.

But who regulates them so they don't take advantage of people being stuck between a rock and a hard spot?

Where I live, there is only one electrical company that provides power to all. That's PGE. They could charge $400 per month to power a basic 1000 sq ft home if there wasn't some sort of regulator. It would easily be a similar issue - which may be okay. But it's regulated so common folk can have electricity to their homes.

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